kakler bitmap@lemmy.worldEnglish
2 daysI was about halfway through this before I realized they were talking about anarchists and not arachnids
- AdolfSchmitler@lemmy.worldEnglish2 days
I put a mirror in the pen of my libertarian cuz I saw online they’ll do funny stuff in front of it but now they’re just yelling at it saying stuff like “you’re not a REAL libertarian” and “that’s not what the non-agression principle is” and I don’t know how to make them stop :[
- Noel_Skum@sh.itjust.worksEnglish2 days
There’s a big difference between American and European species of Libertarian.
Whilst I could never breed American Libertarians I’d struggle to put one down - it’s just a geographic defect after all.
- technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish2 days
Yes, authoritarians view other people as their property to control.
festnt@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
2 daysi like how these comments are 1/3 normal comments, 1/3 people who have no idea what anarchy is, and 1/3 people who really care about how it works
- 2 days
more people need to focus the petplay angle here
- electric_nan@lemmy.mlEnglish2 days
If you find yourself getting real worked up about tankies or anarchists, then respectfully, go touch some fucking grass. There’s real comrades (of a variety of tendencies) out there, fighting against actual (and ascendent) fascism. Your ideological grudges are so fuckin stupid and irrelevant at this point in history. Seriously. Not. Worth. A. Fucking. Mention. Work together when you can, wish them luck when you can’t.
- Deme@sopuli.xyzEnglish3 days
This has nothing to say about anarchism itself. It just assumes that coercive authority would be required for industrial medicine production and large scale agriculture. Anarchism does not mean a lack of organization, just a lack of coercion and unjust hierarchy.
Chloé 🥕@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
3 daysi mean, i have seen many naive anarchists who think “everyone has a garden” and “hi, my favourite hobby is making paracetamol in my garage!” are substitutes for organized agriculture and medical manufacturing…
mostly on social media. but then again, this is a social media post too.
- 3 days
The vast majority of capitalists believe in the possibility of an ever expanding market on a planet with finite resources.
There have been communist who believed you should plant seeds really close together because they would have plant class solidarity and not compete with each other.
There are anarchists who think chaos is a legitimate form of government.
There are fascist.
It’s almost like naive and insane people exist within all political ideologies to different degrees.
- 3 days
The vast majority of capitalists believe in the possibility of an ever expanding market on a planet with finite resources.
actually that’s not true. spaceflight is explicitely researched because they understand that you can’t have an infinitely growing economy on a finite planet.
Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
5 hoursif that was true they’d be putting a lot more effort into it than “idk let’s blow up rockets until it works”
- Deme@sopuli.xyzEnglish3 days
I disagree. Space exploration is mostly still done on public sector money, with the goals of national prestige, scientific advancement and as an appeal to the biological human impulse to seek out the unknown. Private endeavors are mostly focused on using space to grow the terrestrial economy (satcom megaconstellations [Even spacex and their starship is primarily being developed to serve this end]) and as investor bait (the loonie space data center rush and every such impractical startup). The noble search to conquer the cosmos is just PR for them.
- Deme@sopuli.xyzEnglish3 days
I don’t deny that there’s plenty of naive anarchists around. But it’s a false conclusion that anarchism itself would be naive because of that.
- jaschop@awful.systemsEnglish3 days
You can be an anarchist and poke fun at naive interpretations of anarchism. I don’t think you have to read “all anarchists are like these hypothetical human pets” into that joke.
- LurkingLuddite@piefed.socialEnglish3 days
You don’t have to, but that is absolutely the correct interpretation when ‘anarchists’ is further qualified only by, ‘pet’, which only implies ownership. That’s even worse than calling anarchism naive. That’s implying anarchists are so dumb as to be considered pets.
Broadfern@lemmy.worldEnglish
3 days“Workers own the means of production” is, in fact, anarchist but I can understand freshly-minted anarchists get turned off the idea at first by tankies lol
- Deme@sopuli.xyzEnglish3 days
Tankies think that the state should own the means of production. Sure, they’ll then claim that the workers own the state, but in reality it’s just owned by the political elite.
- plyth@feddit.orgEnglish2 days
but in reality it’s just owned by the political elite.
Do they extract the same fraction of resources for their own pleasure? Did Stalin or others have car collections, horse stables or private islands?
- Deme@sopuli.xyzEnglish2 days
Ownership means control. If you own something, that means that you have control over it. Obviously with something as large as a country, most of what that asset produces will go into sustaining said asset. A factory owner doesn’t invest the full revenue of his enterprise into personal luxuries, he has to first pay all the running expenses.
And even then, that person doesn’t need to be fond of luxuries in order to still be an owner. I haven’t looked into what luxuries Stalin enjoyed and I don’t much care. My point is that he had power over everything in the country, and the proletariat had little power over the supposed “dictatorship of the proletariat”.
- plyth@feddit.orgEnglish2 days
How else would you do it? As long as everybody can join the party and rise in ranks I would say that it can’t be more open.
Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
5 hoursuhhh, you’d structure it from the ground up? Like we have this right now, co-operatives exist and they work really well.
- Deme@sopuli.xyzEnglish2 days
Less centralized control. Lenin sowed the seeds for Stalinism when he centralized the political system after the revolution. Selfish actors seek power, and the selfless find themselves corrupted by it. The position being open for everyone just means that anyone can become a tyrant.
Broadfern@lemmy.worldEnglish
3 daysBingo. If your hands aren’t operating the equipment on the daily, you shouldn’t get to (co)own it. Statism bleeding into work life is effectively diet capitalism.
Broadfern@lemmy.worldEnglish
3 daysTheory and reality are different things, absolutely - politics is labor. Whether that’s used for good or evil is separate. Politics also =/= statism, and nothing will ever be neatly cut and dry in the real world to fully divorce ourselves from these quandaries.
- Juice@midwest.socialEnglish3 days
Why not? Politics happens either way. There are going to be people who are more influential than others. name any famous anarchist, my favorite was Malatesta, and they were 100% absolutely engaged in political work.
Is it just that political work is okay until after the workers seize the means? IMO denying the necessity of political work as a means of suppressing the possibility of political domination of a minority, which is a real concern, drifts into authoritarianism almost instantly. Its just denying reality. Denying that political work is work is a political opinion. Enforcing it would be political work!
This is not a gotcha question, genuinely want to hear your opinion. I don’t think pointing out a contradiction is, on its own, a total invalidation of any given viewpoint. Contradictions are everywhere, people are contradictory.
Also that’s not my downvote, I don’t do that shi
- Tiresia@slrpnk.netEnglish3 days
Anarchy is more about dissolving ownership. Why would it be right to keep people out of a factory by force just because you work there?
If you have reason to believe they will cause direct or indirect harm, sure, but ownership is no indication of that. In fact production may be causing more harm than good, in which case it would be right to stop the factory’s operations, with force against the workers if necessary.
Broadfern@lemmy.worldEnglish
3 daysThe beautiful thing about anarchism is it’s a space for hundreds of differing viewpoints (so long as they’re centered on non-hierarchical structures).
That said, I at no point mentioned force or violence in anarchist production ownership. Also where in my comment is there “keeping people out of a factory by force?” Having say over the day to day operations for the place you work is pretty typical of syndicalism, at least.
- 3 days
well the problem is more that there’s a whole lot of high-quality crap literature about anarchism out there. so even if people do read up on it, it’s confusing.
- 2 days
The thing that makes anarchism work is people wanting to participate in it. As a guy who likes anarchism I just want to care more about strength of character than money or power.
- 2 days
So do libertarians, they just don’t have enough trust to see it in others without some sort of unimpeachable token system to recognize as “proof” of their character.
- 3 days
I don’t want garden sized what fields I want huge community ones tended by machines made out of ganked parts running open source MCU firmware.
Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
5 hoursi want that one image of a highway turned into a linear farm, with a machine on rails that automatically plants and harvests stuff.
- 3 days
I’ve seen a lot of garden size machines you can build essentially out of rc and 3d printer parts, hook up to a Pi and run open source software to automate things like watering and even weed plucking if you’ve got pattern recognition and cameras on the machines.
I often wonder how feasible it would be to simply scale it up to a large field. Im absolutely sure it’s done now commercially, but I’m thinking more like “it’s 5-10 years post collapse and you’re scavenging stuff to make it happen in a large field to feed 50 people”
- Grimy@lemmy.worldEnglish3 days
There’s already machines for weeding. Some use lasers, quite cool. That being said, I don’t get how it would be possible in an anarchist system. How do you make the plastics, the metal parts that need high precision, or the chips and rpi?
I don’t really get anarchism. Is it about having a small utopia while still using global trade (with less international laws) and ignoring the city states growing around you with no human right or environmental regulations? How do you deal with the community upstream that poisons your river because of lazy mining?
Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
5 hoursi think the most accessible way to understand anarchism is to just think of how villages used to work:
There isn’t really a big central authority, people just talk to each other and do what needs doing, if there’s a problem you gather everyone and talk about it, and maybe there’s a couple people everyone defers their judgement to because they actively trust them until given a reason not to.A modern household is another example: the police isn’t going to arrest you for not putting your toys away; everyone in a household is largely equal and if someone wants someone else to do something they have to convince them in some way, and yet it works fine!
- 2 days
I think there’s going to have to be a long drawn out transitional period both technologically and socially.
We’d probably need some sort of socialist state in between, and to replace corporations, and eventually other forms of private enterprise, with employee owned and ran co-ops.
You’re right to say something as complex a chip fabrication would go out the window if we tried to do this overnight, but I’d like to think localized manufacturing will get us at some point in the mid-to-distant future.
- Trainguyrom@reddthat.comEnglish2 days
I think there’s going to have to be a long drawn out transitional period both technologically and socially.
We’d probably need some sort of socialist state in between, and to replace corporations, and eventually other forms of private enterprise, with employee owned and ran co-ops.
People couldn’t effectively work together at a societal scale to prevent the spread of COVID-19, I have zero expectation that I’ll see anything other than small incremental changes in society as climate change continues to steamroll the world
Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
5 hoursthat’s not fair, you can’t judge some fundamental aspect of humans by the current system we live in…
If you want to go that route, here in sweden basically all the stores put up disinfectant and plexiglass to protect workers without any sort of mandate, so… clearly people are capable of working together at societal scale to prevent the spread of COVID-19.
- Aoife@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish3 days
I mean, pretty much you get a group of people together to buils/maintain/run the infrastructure because it needs done. As for the community upstream, have a nice chat and if that doesn’t work, do violence. The most important part is setting the conditions so that a self-sustaining state or similar such group capable of enacting large-scale coercion or hierarchy is difficult/impossible
- Deme@sopuli.xyzEnglish3 days
Industry and anarchism are not mutually exclusive. There obviously would be very little industry left in a post-industrial, post-collapse world so I don’t think that particular example is too relevant.
Anarchism takes no stances on the scale or level of industrialization of a society. Anarchist Spain had factories. The whole anarchist federation there stemmed from workers unions. Anarchism also does not mean a lack of organization or a lack of rules the way that “anarchy” is often portrayed by the status quo. It’s just that the organization happens horizontally and without coercion.
If some place is fucking up the environment, then you organize on the regional level (delegate councils or however the system is structured) to lessen cooperation with the problematic community until they stop doing that.
Edit: If some neigbours continue to be dicks, then you can just go to war. Inb4 “Checkmate anarchists, killing fascts in the spanish civil war sounds a bit coercive!”
- Tar_Alcaran@sh.itjust.worksEnglish2 days
Pretty much spot on for the anarchists I know in real life. And seeing the reactions on this post use hundreds of words to go “nah uh!” and blame OP for sabotaging them, makes it even better.
Excellent post
- jaschop@awful.systemsEnglish2 days
Oh, I just got a lovely nah-uh in my inbox: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/21448556
But please let’s be discreet and not upset the critters further.
- 3 days
Not gonna lie, this feels disingenuous.
It’s just political bait disguised as a “meme”.
It doesn’t even contain any good discourse about anarchism, just tired tropes of infantilisation.
Eh, why even post this?
Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
5 hoursyeah this post is like, really fucking mean and i think OP maybe isn’t able to see past the pet-play aspect?
Like i’m fine with pet-play, but the rest of the meme is kinda… abusive? It’s like continuing to treat someone like a baby in public.
- infinitesunrise@slrpnk.netEnglish3 days
Yeah feels like bait. Post something unfunny, tell people who point out it’s not funny that they need to lighten up and learn to take a joke. Momentarily replace feelings of emptiness with feelings of smugness and superiority.
- 3 days
yeah i guess that this is targeted against these low-effort “we’ll just wing it when it comes to it” anarchist takes. like, a system will obviously just work fine and run itself once that the “greedy governing classes” will put their hands off the system.
many people really put close to zero thought into how an anarchist society could function, and it shows. that’s why these kind of memes even exist. if we had actual high-quality discourse available instead of just “well, it’s just gonna work, trust me bro”, we wouldn’t have these memes.
- 2 days
Sorry, but in the interest of being brief, I’d say you’re being victim-blamey. I bet your intentions are good, but we’re taught to think in this toxic way:
“If all anarchists had good takes, {others wouldn’t attack them}.”
“If baby anarchists never spoke until fully fledged, [we wouldn’t have this problem].”
“If she didn’t buy a taser and get self defense training, <she shouldn’t dress like that>.”
Yeah, no. When someone attacks, keep your attention on the attacker.
- jaschop@awful.systemsEnglish3 days
Disagree, I think there’s something there.
Something about baby anarchists who get the spiritual lessons but stubbornly refuse to engage with the complexity of the world and try to naively derive practices straight from theory which end up laughably ineffective. In contrast, once it truly sinks in how fucked and complicated the world is and how powerless your faction is your political practice starts looking more “normal” ™️, but you harbor no ill will against the enthusiastic baby anarchists and sort of envy their lifestyle.
Might be wrong, can’t read OPs mind. But somehow it doesn’t feel mean-spirited.
- 2 days
I see how you could read a version of this post that wasn’t mean spirited, as you describe.
But this specific post, doesn’t do that good-will commentary that you describe.
They’re not pet-baby-anarchists, they’re pet anarchists.
The examples it’s using, are not the real problems one has, when first starting to get out of authoritarianism (inner cops we all have in us), they’re fucking production problems, which are
trivially
easy to answer and reconstruct in good faith, it just takes time to explain, because we live in nested systems of violence, and have been bullied to think that that’s reality.
This post relies on you assuming:
decentralized production is stupid,
in order to, by extension, say that
anarchists are stupid.
In this way, anyone who has suspicions about one of the two maybe being true, can be convinced that both are true.
Textbook fascistic propaganda methods, literally out of Nazi Minister of Propaganda’s playbook.
- Deme@sopuli.xyzEnglish3 days
It’s using a strawman of anarchism which essentially equates it with anarcho primitivism. Those are two different things for a reason.











